Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

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DC3
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Joined: 25 Mar 2018, 02:39

Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby DC3 » 07 Nov 2019, 19:34

Desk Type: Arena
Software Version: V12
Hardware Setup: 1 x Arena + 1 x TNP (on closed Nv2 wireless network)

Issue: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells (sub-fixtures)

Steps to reproduce:

1. Create a group containing an amount of cells.
2. Unfold the fixtures containing the cells.
3. Press <Group> followed by the cell group created in step 1 then choose softkey D "Fixture Order", the current fixture order is overlaid on each cell tile within the fixtures workspace.
4. Tapping a cell tile which should set/change its order has no affect, the order cannot be changed, neither can a cell be excluded from the order.

Workaround:

For fixture order, the order can be changed by manipulating the associated group layout.
nflutter
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby nflutter » 30 Mar 2022, 08:15

Any other ideas on this? I have this issue but I want to have a symmetrical fixture/cell order. I can open fixture order for my cell group but cannot select any cells.
Thanks
DC3
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby DC3 » 30 Mar 2022, 23:29

Can you not set the order through the cells group layout?

By example, if you have a batten type fixture with 8 cells, you could set cells group layout with 2 rows of 4.

Place cells 1 thru 4 on the first row and cells 8 thru 5 on second row. Something like this:

Code: Select all

|1|2|3|4|
|8|7|6|5|

After setting the group layout, if you check the fixture order view you should see a symmetrical fixture order has been applied to the cells.
nflutter
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby nflutter » 31 Mar 2022, 08:30

Yes I've tried that already, it does change the order but not the symmetry. I've got 8 x 2cell blinders so 16 cells, I'm trying to write a flash key that flashes all blinders then when released peels off from the centre out symmetrically, so the 2 middles cells first then the next 2 cells etc etc. By changing group layout they go out in the right order but one side then the other side. In fixture order window you can select the 2 middle fixtures together then hit next step then select the next 2 etc but you can't do it if it's a cell group.
nflutter
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby nflutter » 31 Mar 2022, 08:38

For info my method at the moment is.....
create a cell group
use that group to record an intensity cue
cue options set fixture overlap to 50% and fade out to 1s
set a key profile with grey button 'Timed Flash'

at this point if I've used a super fixture group then I can go into fixture order and create the steps to get the desired effect BUT only on the whole fixture, not by cell.
icke_siegen
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby icke_siegen » 31 Mar 2022, 08:49

Thank you both for coming back to this. I reproduced it in Titan v15.1 and will officially submit it to the developers as I feel this is a bug.

To my mind the 'natural' workaround is using the group layout as DC3 has indicated.

I wonder if you could achieve something like you intended with the pixelmapper. You'd need a triangle, flat base, a tip at center top. Then move this downwards. This makes the cells flash at once and go off from the outside to the center. However I don't know if this gives you the controls you want/need.
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niclights
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby niclights » 31 Mar 2022, 12:34

I've spent some time on this and have managed to get it working the way I expected it to however I encountered some inconsistencies which might be compounding the problem.

My theory was to create a group of cells (as you were) and adjust the layout so that the symmetrical pairs are stacked in the same location.

For example, testing in Titan 15.1 with 8x 2cell fixtures with dimmers on the cells and fixture numbers 1-8 where they run 1->8 stage right->stage left:

Select all the fixtures and make a group of the cells.
[Edit Times] -> <select cell group handle> -> [Edit Layout] (there are other ways to get here, it shouldn't matter which)
In the layout editor window create a layout where everything is on the first row:

1st row, column 1 = 1.2 and 8.1 (on top)
1st row, column 2 = 1.1 and 8.2 (on top)
1st row, column 3 = 2.2 and 7.1 (on top)
1st row, column 4 = 2.1 and 7.2 (on top)
1st row, column 5 = 3.2 and 6.1 (on top)
1st row, column 6 = 3.1 and 6.2 (on top)
1st row, column 7 = 4.2 and 5.1 (on top)
1st row, column 8 = 4.1 and 5.2 (on top)

The concept here being that the first fixtures in the layout are the last ones in the fade (in) so that they start here on the fade out and that the left half have their cells in reverse order (mimicking rotating them 180°).

Select group, @@, record to a playback, [Edit Times] -> <select playback> -> [fixture overlap 50%] -> [Timed Flash] -> [Flash Fade Out = 1s].
Change key profile action of grey key to timed flash.
Hold flash = all fixtures snap to full
Release flash = cells fade out in symmetrical pairs outwards from center over 1s total.

However, it took a few attempts before I achieved this result and I'm not entirely sure why. One time I ended up with an effect that just ran from right->left. Another was as desired except they weren't in pairs with 5.1 then 4.2 then 5.2 then 4.1 etc. instead of 5.1 and 4.2 then 5.2 and 4.1. Each attempt involved adjusting layout, creating a new playback and testing again (always using the same group). I suspect the problem may lie either in the point at which the layout is actually committed or perhaps the layout not being entirely truthful - certainly on one attempt I toggled the rotate mode to 'Wheels Rotate Selection' to flip half of the fixtures and after that whenever I started a drag on some of the cells it initially showed the cell being at a non-full pixel position (for want of a better explanation). Selecting and choosing the 'Snap' option seemed to solve this. I am also unsure if the order of the stacked positions is making any difference (ie. the 'on top' reference above). It probably shouldn't but maybe it is...
nflutter
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby nflutter » 31 Mar 2022, 21:37

Yes as you both suggested editing the layout does work for what I want, key point is that I didn't realise you could 'stack' cells on top of each other. I was playing around with the layout in 2D and couldn't achieve symmetrical timing. It's a pretty long winded way to achieve something that is very easy using fixture order. Is it a bug that cells are greyed out when you try to use fixture order on them?

Also a bit of a drawback is that I have to create a group with the correct layout just to create this look and once I've recorded it I can't just jump straight back in and change the order on the playback like with fixture order, I would have to delete the playback create a new group, or edit the old one, and then make a new playback.

Look achieved so thanks both for your help.
DC3
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby DC3 » 01 Apr 2022, 15:37

If you need to stack the cells in the layout to get the fixture order you want then that is a problem. It shouldn't be like that, it hasn't worked like that in the past.

I did a quick test on V15 PC and I don't see it, I can set the fixture order in the layout without stacking.

If you are not reusing the group and creating it specifically to set the fixture order specifically for this one effect then it is a long winded way of doing things.

Starting over every time, creating a new group, deleting and recreating the playback just to change fixture order would be a long winded way too.

There are lots of ways to create and update this type of effect. If they are simple blinder cells you could patch each cell as a dimmer, that would give you the more familiar fixture order options you are used to.

Looking specifically at this effect on simple intensity fixtures, I might quickly throw it out by building the cue in stages setting fixture order through fixture selection as I go.

By example, if you have 8x 2 cell blinders patched as fixtures 1 thru 8 and arranged on stage running stage right to left with cell 1 of each blinder being closest to stage right:

Code: Select all

1: 1.1 <Thro> 4.2 <@> <@>
2: <Record> <Select handle for Playback> (I'll call back to this as Playback1)
3: <Clear>
4: 8.2 <Thro> 5.1 <@> <@>
5: <Record> <Playback1> [Merge]
6: <Clear>
7: Open Playback View for Playback1 and set Fixture Overlap, Fade Out time and Timed Flash key profile

If you later wanted to change the symmetrical centre out peel to peel from wings to centre:

Code: Select all

1: 4.2 <Thro> 1.1 <@> <@>
2: <Record> <Playback1> [Replace]
3: <Clear>
4: 5.1 <Thro> 8.2 <@> <@>
5: <Record> <Playback1> [Merge]
6: <Clear>

By replacing and merging the cue contents all the playback options like fixture overlap, fade out time and key profile remain unchanged.
nflutter
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby nflutter » 02 Apr 2022, 17:45

What is the downside of stacking the fixtures in the layout? It's working perfectly albeit a real hassle to setup. Your example works but only for simple dimmer channels, my original question was how to achieve this with a celled fixture as for some reason fixture order for cells doesn't work, I can see the cells but they're greyed out. You're example applied to a cell fixture just controls by whole fixture only. At the moment it's just a 2 cell LED COB fixture but same goes if I was using a complex multi cell fixture, was just hoping someone could shed light on fixture order for cells..... cell order! maybe a new feature guys? Thanks
DC3
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby DC3 » 03 Apr 2022, 20:11

My comment about stacking was to say that stacking shouldn't be an absolute requirement to getting the fixture order you want for this effect. Stacking is valid and won't cause any problems for playback, I don't think there are any downsides when using it the way you are. Some examples of downsides are that you can't see the full fixture order just by looking at the layout because some fixtures are buried in the stack, if you want to change the order it is more difficult to select and move fixtures that are buried in the stack. I don't think any of these would apply to your use.

What software version are you using? The example I gave is specifically for celled fixtures, it is specifically for 8x 2 cell blinder types to match the setup you described earlier in the thread. A quick test here on V15 PC shows it works as expected and fades out across cells. I don't know why you see it only working on whole fixtures and I don't know why you have to stack the cells in the layout to get the right fixture order, I have to guess you are using a different software version that processes things differently.

The cell order feature already exists as part of the standard cue fixture order feature. You can't use it to change the order and that is a bug in my opinion, you can remove a cell from the order completely so some editing is possible.
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niclights
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby niclights » 04 Apr 2022, 13:21

The example does apply to the cells (1.1 thru 4.2 and 8.2 thru 5.1 are selecting the cells not the master). However, unfortunately I don't think it achieves the effect you want.
With the fade out from center the order looks like this (where 'o' represents on and 'x' is off):

oo oo oo xo ox oo oo oo
oo oo oo xx xx oo oo oo
oo oo xo xx xx ox oo oo
oo oo xx xx xx xx oo oo
etc.

whereas what I believe you want is:

oo oo oo ox xo oo oo oo
oo oo oo xx xx oo oo oo
oo oo ox xx xx xo oo oo
oo oo xx xx xx xx oo oo
etc.

Similarly the peel from wings to centre example gives:

ox oo oo oo oo oo oo xo
xx oo oo oo oo oo oo xx
xx ox oo oo oo oo xo xx
xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx
etc.

but really you would want:

xo oo oo oo oo oo oo ox
xx oo oo oo oo oo oo xx
xx xo oo oo oo oo ox xx
xx xx oo oo oo oo xx xx
etc.

I should make it clear that I don't disagree about being able to set the fixture order cells. I was just looking for a way to achieve this which the layout does do. I also feel (and expected) that, when the selection originates from a group, any changes to the layout of the group would affect the playback order without the need to re-record.
DC3
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby DC3 » 04 Apr 2022, 20:28

How are you seeing the output from the example? DMX, actual fixtures or visualiser? I have to guess that you are looking at actual fixtures or visualiser and that your fixture orientation does not match the example setup. In the example I specifically said that cell 1 of each blinder would be closest to stage right, I have to guess your fixtures have cell 2 closest to stage right? I didn't see that nflutter gave an actual cell layout so I used the most usual layout that I see.

In my world the usual layout is fixtures placed with lowest to highest fixture numbers running stage right to left, as you have, and strips, bars, battens and any multicell with cells placed horizontally are orientated so that cells will be placed with lowest to highest cell numbers running stage right to left just like fixtures, this is opposite to what you have.

From your report of the output from the example your fixtures are placed lowest to highest fixture numbers stage right to left but orientated for cells running highest to lowest cell numbers stage right to left?
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niclights
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby niclights » 04 Apr 2022, 22:57

Apologies. You're right. I was relying on the visualiser and evidently I had assumed the default orientation of the fixture I was using had cell 1 on stage right. Which it didn't. So your example does indeed work just fine. Rookie error. Sorry for any confusion! Might also explain some of the difficulties I was having originally with the layout...
nflutter
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Re: Unable to edit a groups fixture order when group consists of cells

Postby nflutter » 09 Apr 2022, 09:21

OK just a quick update on this, I've been looking at it again as clearly I'm was doing something wrong as I just couldn't get the result that you're getting.

Finally the penny dropped..... when creating my group I was missing out a 'clear' between unfolding the fixtures and selecting the cell order...... so my group was including the super fixture as well as the sub fixture. I could see the super fixture in my group layout but just thought that was how it showed a group of cells as the individual cells were there too.

Now when I create a group correctly everything works as you said.

Thanks for your help, I was almost going to give up but I really like to understand when things don't work right.

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