The Avolites Discussion Forum

Hi there.
I'm currently using a Pearl 2000 with Robe DJscan 250XT's, Clay Paky Miniscan HPE's and Clay Paky Stagelight 300's.
With these lights I can't seem to get shape generator files for the dimmer/shutter channel to work properly because these fixtures do not have seperate dimmer and shutter channels.

For example, when I use a dimmer curve shape generator, the CP fixtures strobe and go straight to full, strobe and go straight to full.

I've tried to make the size smaller but then the chase value is so small, the shutters hardly move.

The Robe fixtures do not do anything at all. The shutter does not move from the blackout position. Also, the Robe's values cannot be manipulated (speed, size, fine, course are all frozen at set values) when doing dimmer shapes. Why is this?

Like I say, this shutter/strobing/dimmer problem happens with all dimmer shape files. I know they work as I also have High End Technobeam-i's which do the dimmer shapes perfectly (they have separate dimmer and shutter channels)

Is there a way to manipulate the values so that the CP fixtures only dim between 0% and 50% and the Robe fixtures dim between 0% and 37%? Thereafter the strobing on the same channel commences.

Or am I doing something on the desk to make this happen?

Thanks!

There is just one shapefile. It is not specific to fixture.

It's important to understand these operate by modifying values above and below an origin.
So, with a simple fixture that has separate dimmer and shutter you must set the origin to 50% and run the dimmer shape at maximum size in order to get a full fade from zero to 100%. For the Miniscans you must set the origin around 25% and size at approx half. Tweak until you hit the shutter (actual shutter start point is 54.5%).

It's also important to realise that the shapefile contains two parts. A pattern (which are the modifiers) and a shape which determines which pattern is applied to which attribute(s) which, in turn, are specified in the fixture personality file. A dimmer shape will be defined to work on dimmer attributes. Unfortunately that Robe personality has the dimmer/shutter channel defined as shutter. Since there are no shapes associated with the shutter attribute there is nothing suitable.

You have two options if you need intensity shapes - either you must modify the personality so the channel is regarded as a dimmer (this will also place it on the relevant preset fader and force HTP) or modify the shape file to give some shutter shapes. Both are what I would consider advanced tasks but not impossible. Modifying personality is certainly the easiest and is covered in the manual. IMO it is more useful to have a fixtures intensity available on the preset handle even if it is only a shutter.


Personally I don't like dimmer shapes and never use them. I much prefer to create intensity chases. Not only do you have to worry about the origin but you will always have a compromise of whether you assign size or speed to the fader. If you want the shape to be fadeable then you must define a speed and stick to it. If you want to alter the speed then really you must keep the size fixed meaning it will snap on or off.

Ah Ok, I'm understanding a bit clearer now.

How do I actually set the 'origin'? This bit I couldn't manipulate using the size, speed, fine and course.

With the Robe fixtures, it would be good to get dimmer shapes working for them as I have more fixtures of this kind than the CP gear put together. Would modifying a personality have a big impact on the rest of the way I programme the fixtures in the future?

In terms of dimmer shapes, I'm only really needing a wave style shape which is a great effect. Other dimmer styles such as alternate bouncing and 1 on, 2 on etc I could really do as stepped chases.

The origin is just the value of the attribute before the shape is applied. This might come from a playback (including the one where the shape is stored),from a palette, manually via wheel/numeric input or, in the case of dimmer, from a preset fader.
Given that you are looking at dimmer here the obvious place to store it is within the playback. That way it will fade in/out. Technically it won't be perfect given the nature of shapes and the limitations of having size and/or speed assigned to the fader, but it will be close enough.

Note that if you are doing positional shapes (or virtually anything other than intensity) and assigning size or speed to the fader it is best that the origin comes from elsewhere, for example a palette. Otherwise the origin will fade in along with the shape parameter(s), which will look poo.

It may also be possible to create a shape customised to the CP and Robe fixtures which contain absolute origins (ignores actual value) and the exact size etc. Absolute shapes are used for things like Rainbow so that you don't have to manually set CMY to 50% first. However, I'm not entirely sure how (or if) they work on HTP attributes and thinking too hard about shape files makes my head hurt!


Regarding changing the personality I doubt it would make much, if any, difference to your programming. Since it is already HTP all it will mean is moving from shutter to dimmer attribute and giving you access on the preset faders. I see no reason not to do it and personally I think it would be more useful that way - potentially quicker to program intensity via fader and you will be able to see level mimics on the handle LED's if you enable that option.
I have discussed this before with John and there was a good argument for why such fixtures have the intensity assigned to shutter but I can't remember what it was!

Hi Nic
Had a chance to get the desk out today and I'm still not getting this origin business.
When I apply the dimmer shape to the selected fixtures, isn't the origin already set within the dimmer shape?
There's no way that I can figure out how to change the percentage of the dimmer through the shape.
Form what I understand, when the dimmer shape is applied, the shape goes between 0% and 100% up and down - that is the 'dimmer' is going between 0% and 100%. If I size this down all that happens is the Miniscans strobe and then come to open white and back (eg 30% to 70%)
I can't get the shape just to work between 0% and 50% of the attribute channel.


I've tried putting the Miniscans at 25% in a preset and then applying the dimmer shape but this doesn't work at all as it bumps it to 100% and then to 25% and back.

Can you explain in instruction form, what I have to do? Sorry!

Hi,

Sorry, my mistake. Haven't used that software for a long time...

The problem is that 'dimmer spread' is defined as an 'absolute' shape, meaning it has an offset (50%) already specified in the shapefile. Normally this is useful but not in your case.
Most absolute shapes have an alternative 'relative' version (usually appended 'usr'). Unfortunately not dimmer spread apparently.
'dimmer saw' is relative, so you should be able to try that, but it's not the same shape.

Your only option is to modify the shapefile and load it in. You will need a PC with floppy drive.
On any standard (uncompressed) personality disk there is a file SG.DAT. Open this in notepad and paste the following to the end of the file:



Save the file to the floppy, making sure you change filetype to all first so it doesn't append .txt extension.
Put it in the console, turn key to system, [utilities], [load new shape file].
Hopefully that should find and load the file.

Perform a soft reset of the board and then try it.

Hmmm, this seems complicated.

Can you explain what the information means, the numbers etc? The only one I think I get is the 255 which is 100%.

So, what about the Robe scans I have? They start strobing around 37 to 38% but then these haven't been working with the dimmer shapes at all because they are seen as a shutter and not dimmer.

Is there no way to apply a dimmer shape that will make all the various lights follow each other and work all the same? Or do I have to modify this for all shapes I use where different fixtures have different attribute functions?

From the shapefile:

;SHAPE <"name"> <"pattern">
;<Channel, 1=Color wheel, 2=Cyan, 3=Yellow, 4=Magenta, 5=Pan>
;<6=Tilt, 7=Iris, 8=Dimmer>
;<Ampitude (0..255)>
;<rate, 512/(rate*16)=seconds>
;<ramp 0=Off 1=ON>
;<repeat-repeats pattern after repeat number of fixtures>
;<spread-how the instruments are spread across the pattern, 0=even spread>
;<phase-0..360, position where the pattern is picked up from>
;<offset-base position for the channel 0..255)>

'SHAPE name' should be self-explanatory.
'SHAPE pattern' is the pattern we are assigning the following attribute(s) to.
'Channel' defines which attribute(s) are involved. The number follows the same order as used in personality files, albeit they are alpha characters there just to confuse you. For example, shutter will be 15. It's very important to note here that a shape can use any number of attributes but only one pattern.

'Amplitude' and 'rate' should also be obvious. They're just the defaults.
'ramp' and 'repeat' I've never understood.

'phase' defines where a particular attribute starts in the pattern. This is important when more than one attribute is assigned, for example circle where pan and tilt are placed out of phase to achieve the circle.

'offset' is what we are most interested in here. Zero means the origin is relative to the value in the console. Anything else is absolute and overrides. If you look at the shapefile you will see that the only difference between the standard 'dimmer spread' and my 'dimmer spread usr' is this last number, where the factory version has an offset of 128 (50%).


For the robe's you have two options as I explained before:
Either you add a shape that works on shutter.
For example:

or you change the personality file so intensity is moved onto the dimmer attribute. IMO this is the better way.
Changing:

to



I won't pretend this isn't firmly at the deep end but they're your only option if you want to use dimmer shapes on these fixtures.
Ultimately it is the fixtures that are unusual. In the vast majority of cases dimmer will sit on its own channel and everything works fine.

Whichever method you use you will have to carefully set different shapes, sizes and origins for each fixture type in order to get a dimmer shape on all. Unfortunately I see no way you could have a spread across both or more fixture types. Titan has ways of doing this but not Classic I'm afraid.