Test session Titan v2

Questions or discussions about the Titan and classic consoles and software.

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(iCe)
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Test session Titan v2

Postby (iCe) » 04 Nov 2009, 23:44

Hi,

a colleague of mine and I spent some time playing around with Titan v2 this evening. We wrote down everything we found worth while writing down. Here's a list of some things we wanted to share and we're curious about your opinions on these things.

1) It's not possible to latch the delete menu. That would be great to delete multiple cues, pallets or patched fixtures at once.

2) Doing non-busking shows isn't ideal, or we did not find a good way of programming such shows. My colleague programmed multiple cue lists for different songs (musical like show). The things he didn't like were:
2a) It’s not possible (or at least we didn’t a way) to copy a single cue from a cue list to another cue list. Of course it’s possible to output the cue and save it again by saving the stage to a new cue, but we really wanted to copy the contents of one cue to another cue in a different cue list. When a cue list is unfolded, photocopying a single cue seems impossible. And when you leave unfold during a photocopy, the contents of the copy operation is gone (we tried that to copy the cue into a different cuelist)
2b) We would like to have a VDU view which shows more information about a cue list. Things like fade times, auto connected playbacks, things we had in Classic when running Theatre Stack mode. I liked the theatre stack better, though it wasn’t that ideal either. Running theatre shows on Expert is one thing which isn’t that great just yet.

3) When you press photocopy, options are shown in the display. These options disappear as soon as you’ve selected what you want to photo copy. I don’t understand why that’s necessary, could those options remain shown until a destination is picked?

4) An old Frog console I used to operate had a nice feature when crossfading cues. It was a knob which you could turn clockwise or counterclockwise to override the programmed fade time. So when a slow fade has to speed up a bit, you could turn the knob and make it go a bit faster (or slower). The more you turn the know, the faster the fade will go. That would be a nice option for the wheels to have (when no fixtures are selected of course)

5) If a pallet is stored containing only a color, could that pallet show in the correct color on the VDU? Or is it possible to select a color for a pallet on the VDU? Would be great if those pallets would resemble the color I program in them. The same could go for gobo’s, but that would mean you would have to include those into the fixture file somehow (I know it’s done on other consoles).

6) The stage view of Titan on the VDU doesn’t show effects from the shape generator. I would like those output values to resemble the actual output. Now, when a shape is running, that’s not visible in the output values of the stage view.

7) Some fixtures feature a “black-out while moving” options. I don’t use it often, but sometimes it’s a nice feature to hide ugly changes between cues. There should also be a fade time included, so you can get a head to slowly dim to 0, quickly change position and color, and then fade in again. On most consoles that requires programming 4 cues, would be great if this was an option somehow.

8) Is the highlight color included in the fixture file? Could this be a user setting which overrules the default? I prefer white instead of yellow.

9) I still have to take a good look into the playback priority setting, so I’m not sure if this possible or not… When I’ve got a show running, I use pan/tilt effects on my movingheads. Now a keys solo comes up, and I want to solo out the artist. So I want to temporarily move the heads to the position of the keys on stage and lose the moving effect. After the solo done, I want the heads to return to their previous setting. At this point, the priority setting doesn’t override any shapes which might be running, right?

10) The shape generator displays the message “no shapes running” by default. It also shows this message when a shape is running on a playback. So the message should be something like “no shapes in programmer” or something like that. (maybe stupid, but I did find it notable).
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Postby niclights » 05 Nov 2009, 00:35

I agree with many of these comments and I'm fairly sure a few are already understood - ie. general improvements to cue-list inc. move in dark, multiple lists in VDU etc.

1) Erm? Yes it is.

2a) True. The workaround would be to use include I think?

3) Not sure I understand the problem. Surely you want to decide whether you want to copy/link copy/move/swap before the operation? This functions well for me. Maybe I've missed something?

8 ) I prefer just intensity myself, nothing else. It's all defined in the personality file. The D4 has a shift function to adjust from the console. Hopefully this can be implemented on the Expert. One problem is the D4 has a dedicated lowlight button but the Expert doesn't. In the meantime it is possible to edit the xml version of your showfile to suit if you're adventurous.

9) This is possible. The trick is to program a shape with zero size for the fixture attribute you want to solo.
Example:

Cue 1 = Spot position audience + tilt shape.
Cue 2 = Spot position keys + tilt shape zero size. Fade in 2sec. Release Pan/Tilt.

With cue 1 running, when you fire cue 2 it will fade to the new position with no shape. When you kill cue 2 the Pan/Tilt will release to cue 1 position and the shape will start again.

If the shape cue does not contain the origin then you can use mode2 instead of release.

If you set the solo cue to a higher priority then this will ensure it cannot be overridden with subsequently fired lower priority playbacks, but it is not essential in this particular example.
(iCe)
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Postby (iCe) » 05 Nov 2009, 07:16

niclights wrote:1) Erm? Yes it is.

Is it? I tried deleting multiple playbacks / pallets, but the console would leave delete mode after double pressing the swop button. Maybe I did something wrong, could be.

niclights wrote:2a) True. The workaround would be to use include I think?

Nope, include / programmer data is lost as soon as you leave unfold. I'm not sure what would happen when you include a cue list playback which is running a cue: what would be included then? The current output? If so; isn't that the same as just saving the stage view again?

niclights wrote:3) Not sure I understand the problem. Surely you want to decide whether you want to copy/link copy/move/swap before the operation? This functions well for me. Maybe I've missed something?

True, but a few times when I wanted to copy a playback, I selected it and forgot to set options. So if I could still change those options when the source is already selected that would be great (and I don't see why that shouldn't be possible; the menu is cleared anyway).

niclights wrote:8 ) I prefer just intensity myself, nothing else. It's all defined in the personality file. The D4 has a shift function to adjust from the console. Hopefully this can be implemented on the Expert. One problem is the D4 has a dedicated lowlight button but the Expert doesn't. In the meantime it is possible to edit the xml version of your showfile to suit if you're adventurous.

Hmm, I'll just wait and see. Can live with yellow for now :)

niclights wrote:9) This is possible. The trick is to program a shape with zero size for the fixture attribute you want to solo.
Example:

Cue 1 = Spot position audience + tilt shape.
Cue 2 = Spot position keys + tilt shape zero size. Fade in 2sec. Release Pan/Tilt.

With cue 1 running, when you fire cue 2 it will fade to the new position with no shape. When you kill cue 2 the Pan/Tilt will release to cue 1 position and the shape will start again.

If the shape cue does not contain the origin then you can use mode2 instead of release.

If you set the solo cue to a higher priority then this will ensure it cannot be overridden with subsequently fired lower priority playbacks, but it is not essential in this particular example.

Nice! Will try that.


Thanks for you input, definitely something I'm going to use in my next show!

*fixed quote
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Postby Olie » 05 Nov 2009, 10:02

The trick is to program a shape with zero size for the fixture attribute you want to solo.


In the latest shape file there is a new shape called "Block Shape" this is simply a shape with zero speed and size for precisely this scenario. It is a good idea to set the priority higher on this playback because it stops you accidentally running other cues which will mess up the solo spot.

You can definitely latch the delete menu on the consoles I have.

Allot of the cue list comments we are aware of and are already doing something about. Generally the feedback on the cue list programming has been good but we are aware there are improvements to be made. One thing you missed was Preload which is 95% move in dark.

You are incorrect in saying that include data is lost when you exit unfold. However you also assumed that Nic was in unfold when he included when he could have been including without entering unfold.

The link options can only be in the first menu since different validation is done depending on what option you choose.
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Postby niclights » 05 Nov 2009, 12:17

To expand on the include thing:

If you select a cuelist or chase you can then choose which step to include.
If you press store chase and then select an existing chase/cuelist you have options to append/insert or update without entering unfold. I find this very useful. (simply select the cue number softkey and enter an existing step number to reveal update softkey.) When doing this it is not important to specify whether it is a chase or list.

I do still need a function where record cue on top of an existing chase/list provides an option to update all steps. So often I am unfolding and merging data to every step manually.
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Postby (iCe) » 05 Nov 2009, 16:10

Olie wrote:In the latest shape file there is a new shape called "Block Shape" this is simply a shape with zero speed and size for precisely this scenario. It is a good idea to set the priority higher on this playback because it stops you accidentally running other cues which will mess up the solo spot.

Cool, sounds exactly what I need. Will try next time

Olie wrote:You can definitely latch the delete menu on the consoles I have.

Ok, probably made a mistake there.

Olie wrote:Allot of the cue list comments we are aware of and are already doing something about. Generally the feedback on the cue list programming has been good but we are aware there are improvements to be made. One thing you missed was Preload which is 95% move in dark.

You are incorrect in saying that include data is lost when you exit unfold. However you also assumed that Nic was in unfold when he included when he could have been including without entering unfold.

I took the following steps:
- Unfold cuelist
- Hit include
- Select a cue (programmer / clear LED turns on)
- Hit unfold again (programmer / clear LED turns off again)

But if it's possible to include a single step without unfolding that would be even better, I just havent tried that yet.

Olie wrote:The link options can only be in the first menu since different validation is done depending on what option you choose.

Ok, clear.


I'd like to add one more feature request. I usually program color effects for the color wheel of movingheads. I just want it to go to the next color and back again, 50/50 timewise (not a fast flip). Somehow I always struggle with this. The shape names (forgot how they're named) aren't very clear to me and setting up the timing / size is often hard. That leads to the shape being a bit too small or large so either nothing happens or the entire color wheel scrolls by.

Now that the fixture files contain more detailed info on the attribute values and behaviours; is it possible to create a few chases like "Next color 50/50" and "Next color 25/75"? Those shapes should just select the next color slot on the color wheel, depending on the currently selected color. Same would also go for gobo!

And while I'm at it; I'm not sure so I might have overlooked, are there any prism shapes to create prism in/out waves across a number of heads? Maybe theres a clever way of doing the same thing with a chase and delay / overlay timing, haven't tried that yet.
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Postby niclights » 05 Nov 2009, 17:03

(iCe) wrote:I took the following steps:
- Unfold cuelist
- Hit include
- Select a cue (programmer / clear LED turns on)
- Hit unfold again (programmer / clear LED turns off again)

I don't see this.
If I use Quick Include then LED illuminates when the cue is selected and remains on when I exit unfold.
If I use Advanced Include then the LED extinguishes when the cue is selected (this is wrong*) but the data is in the programmer and remains there when exiting unfold.
In both cases I can successfully store a new cue using the included data either within the unfold or outside of it.
It is, however, not yet possible to include shapes from unfold as far as I know. You currently must do this from outside of unfold.


Your comment about shapes making use of the personality data is an interesting idea. I'm fairly sure this is not possible at the moment though? As I see it the shapes run modifiers directly on the DMX values for associated attribute (applying by name).

Clearly I'm out of date with the latest shapefile but I don't see any under effects here. It is possible to make one but I really wish this system was dropped and we could just apply patterns directly to attributes.

*Note that along with the clear LED, the Stage View window can also sometimes give misleading information about items in the programmer (shown in light blue). That is because it is the work of the devil. The LCD wheel view does show things accurately though, so you can check there to be sure.
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Postby (iCe) » 05 Nov 2009, 19:36

Hmm, let's take it one step further along the path of the shape generator. What if you could create your own attribute shape on the fly by selecting one pallet as a base and one as the effect.

Here's what I envision:
- Select 10 movers
- Select the on-the-fly shape gen
- Select blue as a base color
- Select white as an effect color
- Program speed and spread, the effect color is spread across the fixtures, all others have the base color
- Program to a playback

And offcourse this would even get better when you could select colors with the color picker. But that would require that same function to be available for fixed color wheel fixtures too. It would have to pick the nearest by colour available.

Just brainstorming a bit. The effect I want to acheive is setting a base color for the stage and running a second (maybe third?) color across it as an effect. I use the color shape for that now, but as stated thats kind of limited. And in all other cases I have to revert to creating chases, which still is time consuming.

Brainstorming a bit further: what if you could program a chase with one mover in 2 steps (white-blue), then select multiple movers (of the same type probably) and spread that same effect across those heads?

Multiple ways of acheiving the same result, but the implementation will be the key to success I think.


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Postby iadwm » 05 Nov 2009, 23:29

(iCe) wrote:I'd like to add one more feature request. I usually program color effects for the color wheel of movingheads. I just want it to go to the next color and back again, 50/50 timewise (not a fast flip). Somehow I always struggle with this. The shape names (forgot how they're named) aren't very clear to me and setting up the timing / size is often hard. That leads to the shape being a bit too small or large so either nothing happens or the entire color wheel scrolls by.



The colour shape <flick up> does exactly this...adjust the size to range the the step up. Start of with it at zero and a slow speed so you can see what's going on.
Recording a fast shape speed and using <speed to fader, size fixed> works very well for tempo matching.
The only problem is when you select the last colour on the wheel and it then flicks into a colour scroll....and then out....and then in etc :roll:
I've never tried <flick down>, must give that a go...

HTH

Andy
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John Peel

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Postby niclights » 06 Nov 2009, 00:44

I think you slightly missed the point:

Now that the fixture files contain more detailed info on the attribute values and behaviours..... Those shapes should just select the next color slot on the color wheel, depending on the currently selected color.

It is setting the size that is awkward to do.
But if shapes could act directly on the personality information then you would not need to worry about adjusting size to match your particular fixture. It would also remove any problems of accidentally hitting scrolls etc.

50/50 timewise (not a fast flip)

All the 'flick' shapes use the flick pattern, which is a very brief jump to an offset.
For 50/50 you need 'step up' or 'step down'.
Other flick ratios would need a few new patterns with associated shapes, but not all that difficult to do.
For a naming convention maybe it would be better to have ratios like with dimmer pulse - eg. 1:1 rather than referring to the pattern base?
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Postby iadwm » 06 Nov 2009, 01:25

niclights wrote:I think you slightly missed the point:

Now that the fixture files contain more detailed info on the attribute values and behaviours..... Those shapes should just select the next color slot on the color wheel, depending on the currently selected color.



Yes, I did miss the point.

But until shapes can be linked to personalities, it (flick shape) does work adequately to achieve that effect.
I wouldn't say it's awkward. You just have to precise.

Andy
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(iCe)
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Postby (iCe) » 06 Nov 2009, 18:04

niclights wrote:For a naming convention maybe it would be better to have ratios like with dimmer pulse - eg. 1:1 rather than referring to the pattern base?


Agreed.

And indeed: step up/step down does the trick, but being precise isn't always first on my todo list when I've got half an hour changeover to program my show in :) So if such a thing could be made possible, I think lots of users would appreciate it. It's something to again distinguish the Pearl from other consoles, and as stated before: it would be applicable to a number of other attributes as well.

And when you could program offset / delay / spread over shapes based on pallets... just imagine what possibilities that would give you :|

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