Titan Mobile and Media Servers

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Tallysrfr
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Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby Tallysrfr » 03 Mar 2014, 18:04

Hi. If anyone doesn't know by now, I'm an absolute noob to lighting and programming. I'm learning quickly though, for a 46 year-old! :) I'm using a Titan Mobile and perusing the manual, and I've come across something that I don't understand. There's not a lot mentioned about media servers, but one reference was to clips from media servers being displayed as thumbnails. What does this refer to? Pictures? Video? It must use something that's patched in. I'm thinking perhaps it could be for moving projectors? Or could it use a static-mounted projector over ArtNet, like we do with PowerPoint, ProPresenter, etc.? That would be a powerful tool I could use to present a live show with controlled side projections in Titan Mobile. If that's not what it refers to, first, what does it refer to, and, second, is there another way to do what I suggested?
Thanks,
Bryan
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niclights
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby niclights » 03 Mar 2014, 18:26

One way to think of 'media servers' is as a video device that can be controlled by a lighting desk as if it was just another fixture.

So, yes, they would do exactly what you say.

For thumbnails to work you need to patch as an 'active fixture' and the media server needs to support thumbnails over CITP. When you have a compatible device connected over a network it will appear in the active fixtures list.

Note that media servers do not have to be patched as active fixtures. You can still patch them manually as you would any other fixture and have exactly the same degree of control. The only difference is you wouldn't get thumbnail representations of clips.

Examples of media servers include Avolites AI, Arkaos, Hippotizer (Green Hippo), Catalyst*, Screen Monkey. Some are incredibly capable (or complicated, depending on your point-of-view) and have price tags to match. For less demanding applications have a look at Screen Monkey. You can even use the non-DMX version for free and see if it does what you want. If it does then DMX control with CITP is by far the cheapest I know of.

(*note that as far as I am aware Catalyst currently does not support CITP thumbnails)
Tallysrfr
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby Tallysrfr » 03 Mar 2014, 18:49

Thanks Nic. I just took a quick look at the Screen Monkey site and, according to the description, it works much like ProPresenter. Am I correct? We have the latest version of that. Are you saying that Screen Monkey can be controlled through Titan? If that is so, can it be done with ProPresenter the same way?
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niclights
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby niclights » 03 Mar 2014, 19:02

I've never used ProPresenter so I can't say. As far as I can see it does not have the ability to be controlled by DMX so it would not work with Titan.
Tallysrfr
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby Tallysrfr » 03 Mar 2014, 19:36

So, it wouldn't work over ethernet either? I guess I'm confused about just how dmx is involved in the process. I'm used to the idea of video being sent yo a projector across ethernet and I would associate ArtNet in that manner, with a device's address being it's ip address on the network and, thus, in Titan over ArtNet, patched to an ip instead of a dmx address. How far off am I? Btw, we're running TM on a Sony Vaio all-in-one wireless touch screen pc and Windows 8. ProPresenter is run on a MAC and is projected on a large screen in the center-rear of the platform. They've been having problems with videos lagging, etc. Are we supposed to be using a dedicated media server such as Ai or Hippotizer instead of just pulling the media off a drive, either a local or a network drive? And could we, if we got the Screen Monkey software for the the desk that TM is on, control side projections with Titan, while ProPresenter controls the center screen, and both getting their media from the same media server? Ideally, I would like to be able to control everything through the Titan software, but that, or something similar, could be a second option maybe?
Thanks again,
Bryan
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niclights
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby niclights » 03 Mar 2014, 20:51

No, it just doesn't work that way.

I can't really answer questions about what you need. It all depends what you mean by 'lagging' and what the cause is. It might be that your laptop isn't fast enough or a problem with bandwidth over a network if the content is on a remote server. Neither of these would be solved simply by running different software.

I suggest going to a dedicated video forum where you can explain your setup and the issues you are having. For example the video & projection forum at the Blue Room.

I don't see any reason why you can't have a centralised storage for your content but I would want it to be wired, preferably on a gigabit connection. The bandwidth needed depends on the resolution of the video. However, I would avoid having anything other than Titan on the Titan Mobile machine. Not only would it be awkward to manage but it might impact on performance too.
Tallysrfr
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby Tallysrfr » 03 Mar 2014, 21:35

Okay, then I guess I'm asking what advantage is using a media server over just a pc, assuming it's on a wired network? And then how would Titan use it? If the software is not on the same machine, does Titan "trigger" the file to play on another computer thru, say, Screen Monkey? I'm not clear on what Titan does when the thumbnail of the clip is selected.
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niclights
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby niclights » 03 Mar 2014, 22:29

There is clearly a lot of confusion here.

A media server could be just software or it could come with dedicated hardware. Much like you can have Titan One/Titan Mobile or Tiger Touch/Pearl Expert/Sapphire Touch.

Just software is cheaper but may be limited by the capability of the PC/laptop. Hardware is more expensive but is designed specifically for the job. In the case of media servers this can mean the ability to run multiple layers (for example fading across video clips) over multiple full HD outputs at full frame rate and with a ton of image processing happening in real time. For the high-end applications you could build a fast PC with multiple video cards that did this but it's probably easier to buy a purpose built machine that can be rack-mounted and cope with the demands of touring. For low-end applications an average PC or laptop will probably be more than adequate.

To quote from the Media Server Wiki:
The growing use of motion graphics in environments such as Theatre, Dance, Corporate Events and rock tours has led to the development of media servers designed specifically for live events. These machines are often high-spec home computers with increased RAM or hard drive technologies such as RAID arrays or solid-state drives. They are then supplied with software which allows the control and manipulation of video content, much like VJ software. One of the primary functions of these machines is to allow current show control technologies to control the playback of video content. Thus, a media server system may include inputs for DMX512-A, MIDI or similar control protocols.


By 'current show control technologies' it essentially means lighting desks which, in turn, are designed to control things using 8-bit channels (ie. 0-255 per channel). While it can certainly be controlled using DMX512 or MIDI, in reality they tend to only be controllable by Art-Net or similar network protocols like sACN. I would imagine the main reason for this is that the potential number of control channels required makes physical DMX impractical.

Titan (or any other lighting desk software) will communicate with a media server using Art-Net, either on the same machine or over a network. There's no difference.

In the case of Screen Monkey the two most significant channels relating to playback are 'Clip Select' and 'Playback'. Clip Select is the one that will show thumbnails in the attribute editor when patched as an active fixture. Clicking on a thumbnail will select the clip. 'Playback' has three functions - 'Clear Layer', 'Play Clip' and 'Pause'. If Playback is set to 'Clear Layer' then nothing will happen when you select a clip. When you change this to 'Play Clip' the selected clip will start. If you select a clip while play clip is active it will start immediately. The active fixture thumbnails are just representing values on the Clip Select channel. If you didn't have it patched as an active fixture you could still select the clips by number - you just won't have an image that shows you what it is. Most media servers work in much the same way.
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby clublights » 04 Mar 2014, 07:02

IF I may ...



I think the best way to basically explain a media server is to think of it as just another fixture.

instead of Pan and Tilt you have brightness and contrast ( for example)
Instead of Color and Gobo you have video files and still images.

Depending on the media server ( which like stated above can be software on a laptop or a dedicated rack mount computer box)
You can have multiple layers ( i.e. multiple color and gobo wheels ) depending on how many of these you have and how complex of control they are per layer that can run into hundreds of channels even multiple universes. which is why many use art-net ( just think of art-net as a multi channel DMX snake using just an ethernet cable... yes a very basic theory view of art-net but an accurate one I feel )

All CITP does is send a thumbnail back to the titan software to give you an idea of what the file is at that "gobo slot" ( like if a Mac 2000 could tell you what gobo is in what slot .. even if you change gobo's it would send a picture of it back to the desk for you )
Tallysrfr
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby Tallysrfr » 04 Mar 2014, 15:45

Okay, I'm with you so far (mostly). Now, when you select Play, it must be displayed on something. What kind of displays will it work with, LED screens, other LED fixtures thru the pixel-mapper function, moving projectors? Or is there a way to output the clip to regular (or HD) projectors?
Thanks again,
Bryan
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niclights
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby niclights » 04 Mar 2014, 17:47

It will output video through whatever outputs the media server has. If you are on a PC/laptop then this will be a VGA/DVI/HDMI/Displayport etc. Whatever. For example, Screen Monkey has the ability to choose whether it goes to display 1 or display 2. Display 1 might be your internal laptop screen and Display 2 the external output. Much the same way things like PowerPoint work. The larger hardware based systems will often have more than two outputs.
Most also have the ability to pixel map the content onto fixtures. This is usually output over ethernet using Art-Net.
Tallysrfr
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby Tallysrfr » 04 Mar 2014, 18:35

Okay, cool. That's where I was heading from the beginning. As I said before, we are on a Sony Vaio touchscreen with Windows 8. The only outputs it has (sadly) are usb and ethernet. I guess I can connect a projector through ethernet. Windows only supports two displays, so my main display would have to be for Titan. I wanted a second display in the booth for the the Visualiser, and as for projectors, I wanted one on each side of the room at about 45 degrees. I was hoping that the Titan software, with a media server, would allow me to bypass that restriction. If I'm reading you right, that setup could be possible with media server hardware, but not with just the software, without extra video cards. And that's not an option with the touch screen. But I can use another pc (tower) as the media server, with video cards and/or dmx cards, with the media server software, patched as an active fixture, and direct the output to the devices connected to the server itself, correct? And so, I can pull the media clip off the media server and output it to different projectors from the server, while running other lighting cues, and even cue lists set to timecode on the Titan machine? And still have Visualiser on an external display connected to it? If that's the case, that would be great.
I'm trying to determine which direction is the best for our organization at this time, and planning for the future as we grow. Therefore, I want to build upon the right foundation. I really appreciate your help and patience.
Thanks,
Bryan
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niclights
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby niclights » 04 Mar 2014, 19:35

I very much doubt you could output video directly over ethernet. Windows supports more than two displays but if you don't have any display outputs it is a moot point.

I'm going to approach this from a different angle.

- Since you don't have any display outputs on your Vaio you would need another machine.

- If you're happy with the same image appearing on both projectors then you only need one output which can be split into two.

- One output means you can probably get away with just a laptop that has a VGA output. Run Screen Monkey on this and network with the Vaio.

You setup the content as clips in Screen Monkey. You control the playback of these clips via Titan. The output goes to the VGA output of the Screen Monkey laptop. This is then split into two and feeds both projectors at the same time.

Regarding Visualiser I don't think you'll be able to do this over a network. You could with a third-party visualiser like Capture but realistically you would need yet another machine for this.


As I have said before try to keep whatever you do as simple as possible. Sometimes just pressing play on a separate DVD player is the best option!
Tallysrfr
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby Tallysrfr » 04 Mar 2014, 19:49

That sounds viable to me. As for the Visualiser, if I do as you say, with a separate laptop, with a VGA output split for both projectors, wouldn't I still be able to run an external display via usb on the Titan machine and Visualiser through that?
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niclights
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Re: Titan Mobile and Media Servers

Postby niclights » 04 Mar 2014, 20:01

I don't have any experience of Usb to video adapters. I would be wary though. They will be quite resource heavy and require special drivers which might affect the stability or performance of Titan. I'm also unsure whether the Titan will recognise this as a second display. Maybe someone else can help with this?

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